Permission to be Authentic: No Assholes Need Apply with Brenda Jacobson

YBOP Intro/Outro: 00:00:06

Welcome back to Your Brain On Positive. All the love and support you need is residing inside of you. And we're going to make it easier to turn it off.

Jackie Simmons: 00:00:23

I am so excited that you're here, I think you are going to be very excited as well as I get into a conversation with a conversation master, we're going to deep dive into the power of conversation to build connection and community. The power of communication. So with me is an expert in this is Brenda Jacobson is the founder of a company that trains emotional intelligence and communication skills, the company is you EQ. And while the power of everything that they do is sometimes lost in a noisy marketplace, you might find them training in a boardroom, you might find her speaking on a summit or you may pick up one of her books. The reality is, by the end of this conversation, you will have more than you bargained for. And your conversations, connections and community are all going to get stronger. Helped me welcome into the studio. Oh, Zoom Room, Brenda, unmuted and join me.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:01:32

It's a great, great pleasure to be here with you, Jackie. Always love our conversations. And we do have some good ones, we have some good ones. So

Jackie Simmons: 00:01:43

I'm going to ask you to take a step back in time and talk about how you got interested in this conversation piece. In this particular aspect of communication.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:01:59

I, it's always been critical to me like I spent 20, some years as a corporate executive, and no Corporation No, no species on Earth can survive without communication of some sort. When I was a corporate executive, the communication was so dysfunctional, that it didn't surprise me that many companies were going out of business, and teams were breaking down. The it really hit home after I had an accident, it fell 3000 feet down a mountain. And I it took me five years to recover five years that I basically withdrew from society. And then I had to come back and start rebuilding connections rebuilding my community. Because it's really lonely when you're isolated when you're you know, out of a tribe. And on your own. Historically, our ancestors didn't survive. If they were kicked out of a tribe, they it was a death sentence. And we have kind of gotten away from that now, especially the last three years with the isolation and that you can't meet with your family and events are canceled. That is really starved people that are used to having community around them that are used to thriving through conversations and connections. And so that's, you know, I've had the interest all along. But it's really taken on a new life form for me, after after this post pandemic phase where people are looking at, you know, how do I bring health back into my life mental health stats, as you know, have just skyrocketed because people have been isolated and alone and without community. So how do we start rebuilding that in a way that people feel safe that you know, they're building bonds with their conversations instead of breaking them? All of these are skills, you know, the thing that really strikes me, it disappoints me with our society and our education system is nobody has ever really offered this to people unless they went looking for it. There's people that train this stuff if people go looking for it, but never have a trained communication skills or conversation skills, relationship skills in any standard school.

Jackie Simmons: 00:04:22

You know, the funny because I was gonna say, Well, wait a minute, I got it in high school, but it wasn't through the school system. Through one of my groups I was I was a member of a group called Junior Achievement. It's sort of like the the 484 F four, four h for the city kids for businesses, right? And there, Dale Carnegie came in and did a training, you know, which was the first real application of communication other than writing research papers, which is a style of communication, but it does not build connection. No,

Brenda Jacobson: 00:05:05

absolutely. And that was a specialized group. It wasn't offered in public education, it was something that you had to go and seek out or your parents sought out or something. But these are such these are survival skills now, like, these aren't just life skills, they're survival skills. And nobody is teaching our kids that I had a conversation with my grandson, who's 14, and he's disgusted with the education system is probably all kids at HR. And I said, so what would you do different? Like, what would you teach? If you could start a school from the ground floor up? What would you teach? And he goes, I don't I said, you know, what I teach, I would teach people how to talk to other people and how to build relationships. And he goes, Oh, that's this comes naturally to people. Like, you don't have to teach that stuff. And I'm going, have you looked at social media lately? Like, people do not know how to build connections and community through conversation that skills just aren't there anymore?

Jackie Simmons: 00:06:07

down that rabbit hole. What's one skill that's missing?

Brenda Jacobson: 00:06:12

The skill is missing is in? There's a number of them. But I would say that the one that really jumps to mind for me first, is it because it's so prevalent right now is people approach other people largely through judgment largely through their left brain that is the Right wrong, good, bad part of our brain. And that's how they enter into conversations is with this need to prove that they're right and the other person's wrong or causing creating conflict, rather than connection? And it comes from approaching any conversation through judgment rather than through curiosity.

Jackie Simmons: 00:06:56

Got it? So it's interesting, because the power of people to judge me we are judgment making machines. We absolutely are, you know, and we had to be, I mean, this is the natural negative bias of the brain that allowed for our common ancestor, the caveman to survive, survive. Absolutely. And curiosity was not a survival skill. As a matter of fact, you got to curious about what was making that bush shake, you became lunch, Curiosity killed the cat. Yeah, well, in this case, there was no satisfaction bringing them back. Yeah. So curiosity was kind of bred out of our gene pool at a very early time, and then it has started coming back in as our brains have gotten more developed. But the default is not curiosity, the deep my curiosity

Brenda Jacobson: 00:07:49

now. And and I even, you know, training this stuff, working with it for 20 plus years, I still catch myself, especially if I'm tired, or I'm hangry. You know, I will go into that default mode, where I come from, while you're an idiot, like, How can you even think that way?

Unknown: 00:08:11

You know, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And to ourselves, I mean, absolutely, we are the worst offenders

Brenda Jacobson: 00:08:17

with ourselves. And this is what I teach when I when I work with people around building relationship is the very first and most critical relationship that you can build is the one with yourself. Apps, because we Yeah, you know, that we will be so much more critical in our self talk, than we ever are with people outside of ourselves.

Jackie Simmons: 00:08:41

And given how critical I can be of people outside of myself, I Yeah. What are the biggest challenges that are self talk is often mostly unconscious,

Brenda Jacobson: 00:08:52

so unconscious, and it's very negative.

Jackie Simmons: 00:08:55

Maybe a good place for our listeners to start would be to get curious about what their self talk is talking.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:09:04

Yeah. And when you're curious, what happens is you become aware, it builds your it opens up your awareness. So if you're curious about yourself, talk and you set that as an intention, you're going to start becoming really aware of what you're what you're saying silently, like internally to yourself, and how critical you are, of the way you look, the way you act the way you know how, how you presented how you spoke at a at a event or how you spoke in front of an audience. You know, whatever you did, whatever you do, you know, you run you run with a group and you're going to be more critical of yourself than anybody else.

Jackie Simmons: 00:09:48

So how do you shift from critical to curious, what are some things that people can actually do that will shift their brain to curiosity?

Brenda Jacobson: 00:09:56

You know, one of the one of the best strategies is is open questions, making sure that your questions that you ask are not yes, no answers are not one word answers. So, you know, something like, you know, did you have a good day today? You're gonna get a yes, no answer.

Jackie Simmons: 00:10:20

If you walk into a teenager,

Brenda Jacobson: 00:10:23

you're gonna get a grunt, regardless of how well positioned your open question is, that's just a given. Like, my son's in his 30s, he still can grunt an answer out, and I'm not quite sure what it is. But yeah, if you said instead of you said, you know, hey, Jackie, what was the best part of your day today? Now you're gonna have to have a conversation. You're gonna have to, you know, it might be a short answer, but they're gonna have to be more than one word. But I'm gonna learn a lot more about you. But about the things that make a good day for you, the things that bring you joy, the things that really make you feel successful. I'm going to get that out of an well position question like that, instead of just Jackie, did you have a good day today?

Jackie Simmons: 00:11:11

So let's give them that well positioned question again.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:11:16

The one that I just said, Yeah.

Jackie Simmons: 00:11:18

Which I know your question. Yes. Like, what did I say? What did I say?

Brenda Jacobson: 00:11:22

I say, yeah, exactly. Now I have to remember. What was the best part of you? Yeah, Jackie, what was the best part of your day to day?

Jackie Simmons: 00:11:30

So what was the best part of your day today? I love that question for two reasons. One, because you're right, you can't answer it in two or three sentences, actually, three words. The other is because it pre supposes a positive. And you a presupposes that there was something in their day that was better than other things. Yeah, without making it. Where it's the best thing is just what was better than everything else. So yeah, it doesn't have to be the best moment of their life. Just the best moment of the day.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:12:07

Yeah, it makes people look at their day, through a positive lens, like, Oh, I gotta answer this, what am I going to say? What was a good part of my day? Oh, I'm going to focus on this. And it does bring that to front of mind. And, and it ends you enter into a conversation.

Jackie Simmons: 00:12:26

All right. So curiosity, creates conversations and conversations based on Curiosity rather than judgment, build connections. Yeah. All right. So now that we are bringing people along, onto how to shift the conversation into a more positive mode, putting a positive spin on it from the get go. And bringing a conversation, not just a transaction, Grunt? Yes, no, yeah. How does it? How do we take it one step further? How do we actually start building community?

Brenda Jacobson: 00:13:05

No community is just a collection of people who are connected. Okay. Yeah. Like, that's what builds community, I build a connection with you through my conversations that I have with you. I build a connection with Katie, through my conversations I have with her I build a connection through, you know, with Ally, Nicole, that call through conversation all of a sudden, Ally, Nicole, and you connect, because you're part of my group, and you guys bring your content, you know, it gets just grows, you tell two friends and they tell two friends and they tell two friends and people end up coming together on that mutual with that mutual interest of building community of connecting with people in a very positive, friendly, uplifting way.

Jackie Simmons: 00:13:53

Yeah, it's absolutely interesting. I am thinking back to what you said about and you talk to friends, they show up, talk to friends, and they talk to you. And for people who are not of a certain age, you might not get the reference. But there was a shampoo commercial, if I remember correctly, and they just started populating the screen. And she told two friends in New York tell two friends and yeah, yeah. And what they demonstrated was the power that turned into one of the most successful marketing campaigns of our age. And I'm not sure most people realize the connection between the two. Yeah, but clubhouse was built on this premise. You have two invitations, go invite two people and then they're gonna get two invitations and they can go and invite two people and then they're gonna get and it was done on this absolute limiter. That was based on that. I'm pretty sure based on that all commercial certainly sounded a lot like it. Whoever it is, I mean, this was brilliant. Yeah. And I think that that's really possibly one of the problems that I'm seeing with, quote, communities being formed on social media is that there's not this limiter, it's relatively an indiscriminate invitation a lot of the time. So it's not personal referrals anymore. It's a mass market approach to building a community. And it's missing something for me. And I didn't know what it was until we started this conflict

Brenda Jacobson: 00:15:31

started talking. Because when you go tell two friends about something, you have entered into a conversation with them. And it's going to be an uplifting conversation. And it's not going to be a conversation that comes from judgment, it'll be a conversation of shared inspiration, or, you know, there's a lot of other conversations skills. But that's a conversation. And that's why you will engage personally with that person and bring them in. You don't get that on social media, people do this Blitz to 5000 of their closest friends, they'll send it send the same message out to but there's no personal interaction with that.

Jackie Simmons: 00:16:12

It's interesting, there's a lot of possibilities for building community and building connection. And I don't know what were the parameters are what's gonna make for a strong, healthy, vibrant connection with someone? I mean, he used to be that we became best friends, because we spent massive amounts of time with each other. Yeah, we don't spend massive amounts of time even with ourselves anymore.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:16:48

No, no, the world, the world is moving too fast for that. And so it has to become like everything else. Everything else has to evolve into this new way of doing business of doing life, not just business. But we see and you know, a lot of corporations are struggling with this right now. Because they have this workforce that when they sent people home, you know, for to isolate for the pandemic, people started seeing life very differently. And then they didn't want to come back. And so now we've got businesses that are trying to build community within their, their corporations, they build that culture, because they have seen the monetary results of having a very strong positive culture. They sculpt, you can't argue the kind of results that come from having a very close knit community. So how do you do that when some people are at home, some people are in the office, some people are back and forth. It's a very different world for building that kind of corporate culture community, inside and outside the organizations. Okay, so

Jackie Simmons: 00:17:58

you said this, there's a strong correlation between a community sense within a company and their profitability? Absolutely. What's a good example of that, so we can get a great illustration of what we're talking about. So people,

Brenda Jacobson: 00:18:14

I don't have like, I can say, some of that I don't know, personally, but I've read case studies on Zappos is probably one of the best stories. Starbucks is a really positive culture within there, and they see examples came from from almost being, you know, insignificant, like nobody knew who they were to, you know, top of the realm, but a lot of it was just how they develop the corporate culture. Okay,

Jackie Simmons: 00:18:46

cuz you was you were talking what? Oh, wait a minute. I know a good example of that. It's my favorite airline. It's Southwest Airlines. Absolutely. Are ye owned? Yeah. And so there was a lot of ownership. And I think that there's a component of that, that when people within a group share ownership of the community, by definition, that community gets stronger.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:19:12

Absolutely. Okay. So we're as long as that community has parameters, you know, for example, no trash talking. No, I read a book back and it was written in the 80s called the no assholes rule.

Jackie Simmons: 00:19:30

No, I've never read that the no

Brenda Jacobson: 00:19:32

holds rule that no acids will and it was and it was, I believe it was a group of professors from Stanford University that put this study out that and they floated this around and what the premise was was I don't care how big a cash cow anybody is in your organization if they're an asshole they're out. And if they and by asshole I mean they mistreated people. They were critical, critical of everybody, they were superior to everybody. They bashed the receptionist or the, you know, that type of thing. And, and there was like a big law firm, I believe down in Texas that actually fired the one of their highest earning partners under the premise of this rule. Wow. And what they found was that their company got stronger, they lost their biggest breadwinner. But the company flourished because of the impact that he was having on the rest of the community. And with him gone, the community wove together and produced exponentially greater results.

Jackie Simmons: 00:20:42

That's an amazing and amazing story. And I love the connection between them. What can happen when there's ownership of the culture, when there's ownership of the community? Absolutely. As we move forward in our world, the people who are so hungry for connection now, are actively seeking communities. And yet, we don't know how to talk about our community. We don't know how to communicate, I mean, granted, Zappos, Google comes to mind southwest, they have been able to clearly articulate their culture, what it is about why it exists. Now, you said something earlier about one of the skills the first one we talked about was curiosity, you also said something about shared inspiration? And I'm like, Can you say a little more about what that would actually look like in a conversation or, you know, between two people? You know,

Brenda Jacobson: 00:21:52

I think that, again, it comes from that open dialogue. And when so, I'm my own example is, I stepped in as the CEO of what was an integrative medicine Institute. And I became their marketing team, because that nobody else could do it. And there was nobody else on staff. And I was arguing is, the board that brought me on, I said, I am not a salesperson, like I'm not, don't put me out there as your salesperson, I am not a salesperson. These were people who had brought me in because they've worked with me for quite a long time. And they said, you know, Brenda, you are the best salesperson that I've ever come across. Because you don't sell anything, you just, you know, you tell your story, you inspire people, you you, they get all ramped up. And they just want to be a part of that energy. And that was kind of interesting for me. Because when I do go out into groups, I just talk freely, I talk about my experience, I talk about what excites me, and that positivity is contagious. And so then you're going to find that other people just want to be a part of whatever it is that you're doing that's making you feel like that. I want to be part of that. So that's what I mean about shared inspiration is you can inspire people to be their very best self, just through the way that you hold conversations with them.

Jackie Simmons: 00:23:30

Cool, that is so so cool. By the way, we hold conversations with them by being willing to share our story and what we're excited about.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:23:42

Yeah, and and to be vulnerable to be authentic. Those are critical components to it, if they think that you're being artificial, the reason that they thought I was the best salesperson, which I still disagree with, but the reason that it was is because and they say you never sell anything, I don't I just authentically share what excites me about this or what excites me about that. Not intending for them to adopt my philosophies, but for them to, to just share in my joy with me. But they want to be a part of that. It's that's why I say it's contagious that are going like you know, I want to how do I get to be a part of this? What do I need to do? Because it comes from that place of, of authenticity of being vulnerable of sharing my story authentically, and the conversation just takes place. With that. They will open up what happens when you are authentic. You give other people to show up authentically, which our society generally doesn't do that. Like there's so many shoulds insurance like you shouldn't act like this. You shouldn't say this, you should do this. You should do that. People can't hold all of that in their brain if they can just be themselves have Every person on the planet is so powerful within themselves if they could just engage their absolute inner core. And if they have feel that freedom to show up authentically and be real, in any conversation, if they you just can't argue the results of that.

Jackie Simmons: 00:25:19

Well, you know, you said a powerful word. And they said, You can't argue and I've been known to argue anything. So waving that red flag in front of my face, could you but I understand what you what happens is what you're describing, is the fact that when you show up as authentic, when you show up as vulnerable when you simply share what inspires you, a gives other people permission to be themselves as well, whether or not they're inspired by the same thing. It's just, I think it is probably a super positive addiction, to being able to feel comfortable in my own skin to be comfortable being me around you is the greatest gift that one human being can give another.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:26:13

Absolutely. And it let me just be clear, it doesn't mean that you're going to agree with everything that inspires me, doesn't mean that you're not going to argue with me. But it's done in such a way that that we enjoy the experience, our differences. We enjoy like I every time we have a conversation where I say black and you say wait, and we talk about that, because it's never done in judgment. Again, it's done in Oh, so what, you know what, I don't want to use the word why? Because that's one of our things is to kind of a default. But what makes you feel that way? Or what gives? What gave you that experience of this? Or where are you coming from? How does that resonate with you? Any of those open questions, and then you share it just brought, it just expands my world? You know, totally different perspective on it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:27:05

There's a point that is really, really clear here. When you talked about no assholes. Yeah, someone who is attached to being right will struggle with being curious about other people they will struggle with being curious about what could be a mind expanding conversation.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:27:32

A different perspective, right? Yeah, a different perspective.

Jackie Simmons: 00:27:35

So there's a tacit understanding that if you have someone in your world who is very attached to being right, you may have to do a little more work to bring about a change in your communication and connection and actually build community with them. And what I'm remembering is that the power of someone feeling heard? Yeah, so if there's someone in your world that's incredibly attached to being right, my suggestion is, let them hear themselves. Let them talk more, give them the experience of hearing of being heard. And I know you've got some great skills around that. What is the secret sauce to helping someone feel heard?

Brenda Jacobson: 00:28:35

We teach a number of skills. Part of it is curiosity is the open questions. Just ask them those. The other to really make somebody feel heard, is when you can can respond to them in a way that that echoes what they've said, in your own words. Not, you know, some of them who say, you would say blah, blah, blah, and I say, oh, Jackie, what I hear you saying is blah, blah, blah, well, of course, you heard the words. But when you can take the meaning of what they said to you, and really absorb it into your being. Let them know that you see them that you hear them, that you understand where they're coming from, and that you really care about what their position is, even if it's different from yours, you can really understand that those are the building blocks of empathy. And when you can base a relationship on empathy, it's a powerful foundation for it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:29:33

You know, I'm my gut is like, Bing Bing, this backfired on me, this backfired on me and I'm going alright, Jackie, on up to this. What backfired on me was my assumption that I was right about what I had heard. And so when I shared it back with them, I didn't validate it. I didn't I didn't ask them to validate it. I didn't say did I get it. Yeah. Right. And so what? Because I didn't get it, they felt like I didn't hear them. So it hit the wire. So asking you did I get that? Right? Did I get used to a situation that got kind of snarky with one of my sisters? And so I learned

Brenda Jacobson: 00:30:21

always family only are our best teachers.

Jackie Simmons: 00:30:25

Family are our best teachers. Alright, well, we have covered the concepts of how do you use communication? How do you use conversation to build connections and community? You've given us some great, simple, usable steps and why it's so important to be curious to ask open ended questions to take it in and give it back as this is what I understand about what you believe or where you're coming from, and checking in to make sure we got it right.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:31:04

Again, it doesn't mean that you agree with their position, it's just that you have heard and understand that they have a different position than you do.

Jackie Simmons: 00:31:13

You've also shared a great resource. It sounds like that book, The no Asshole Rule. Yeah, he's going to really even even have a conversation around the title. Yeah, I think build community.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:31:27

Can you imagine that title coming out in the late 80s? Oh, that was disruptive, just the title itself coming out with that word in it. It was disruptive.

Jackie Simmons: 00:31:37

It was disruptive. And we like things that are disruptive, because I'm not a big fan of same old same old band that said, Yes, status quo. I believe that the greatest enemy to creating a community is to try to keep it static. Yeah, keep it from changing.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:31:58

Oh, not in this world. I'll tell you that world is changing so fast. If you want to keep up with it, you've got to change along with it. So.

Jackie Simmons: 00:32:06

So there we go. So in the interest of helping everyone listening to this podcast, change their communications, improve their connections, and strengthen their communities. Brenda, thank you so very, very much for being a part of this today.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:32:21

You are so welcome, as I always love our conversations, when we can share this with more with a wider audience. I believe that both of us have a great impact on people and just this conversation, the way we held conversation has a great impact. So thank you for inviting me on to share the space with you,

Jackie Simmons: 00:32:40

where you are very welcome. And you know, I will be having you back as as we have multitudes of topics. This one though, is the most critical in the moment. I think.

Brenda Jacobson: 00:32:53

I agree with you. So I look forward to coming back and having another conversation with you.

Jackie Simmons: 00:32:59

Sounds like fun to me. Sounds good. Perfect. Thank you for and thank

Brenda Jacobson: 00:33:05

you so much. Bye now.