Taming Difficult People - Leslie Austin

YBOP Intro/Outro: 00:00:06

Welcome back to Your Brain On Positive. All the love and support you need is residing inside of you. And we're going to make it easier to turn it on.

Jackie Simmons: 00:00:23

Welcome to Your Brain On Positive. I'm Jackie Simmons, I am your host. And today we are going to talk about what takes your brain off positive. And for me, what takes my brain off positive shifts straight through neutral and right up into reverse, which will rip the gears out of any car. Putting my brain on negative quickly, all it takes is being around a difficult person. Certain difficult people who have the ability to push my buttons even though I'm an expert in stress management, and in dismantling emotional remote control, so people can't push my button. But there's always that one isn't there. So helping me with this conversation, someone you're going to love? Because I do and I know you. So please, lastly, just thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for bringing your expertise into my life and now into my podcast.

Leslie Austin: 00:01:19

So it's my pleasure, Jackie, you know that? Yeah. All right.

Jackie Simmons: 00:01:24

So the topic is dealing with difficult people, let's give them a little bit of get to know you. When did you get started dealing with difficult people,

Leslie Austin: 00:01:38

probably my first breath in life not getting getting, but but

Leslie Austin: 00:01:45

everybody has difficult people, and everybody has people who stress them. And the root of that is very simple. And very obviously, we often overlook it. The root of that is we all want what we want. And when we don't get it, the other person's dead. And that's a difficult, it's a difficult and painful road to go down and causes a lot of concepts and a lot of stress that really ultimately is not necessary. Okay, I got started very young, I love from very young, I love thinking about and looking at what makes people tick. And you might be interested to know that one of the things that was most stimulating to me and that path was I lived in Brooklyn in New York, and my parents started taking me to Broadway musicals in theater when I was four. And I remember shows vividly if you could plug a wire into my head and download what the color sense memories I have from where I was sitting, you'd have great records of all the classic shows. The reason I'm mentioning that is not only do I relate very strongly to the music, because I'm a musician, but those shows very early on got me curious about all the feelings and the relationships and the conflicts. And you know, in dramatic structure, there's always a storyline and there's a conflict, and there's a peak of the conflict, and then there's a resolution and then there's an ending, which is sometimes happy and sometimes not. Well, that's human relationships.

Jackie Simmons: 00:03:23

Ah, there we go. Alright, so we're gonna pause this for just a second, because you just said a lot, and we're gonna unpack it. The first thing that you said was about, we want what we want. And when we don't get what we want, the other person is bad, right? This sounds like we're talking about two year olds. But you're not you're talking about adults.

Leslie Austin: 00:03:44

I'm talking about the two year old in the adult eating about the part of us, when you really have conflict with somebody else, and it becomes very personal. There's a wound or a threat or a dissatisfaction, that's real, of course. But if you don't have the awareness and the ability to observe how you're dealing with it, then you're stuck in the two year old mode of give me what I want, or I'm gonna have a tantrum. Okay, as an adult, learning about yourself, studying yourself, understanding the difference between your ego and your need. You learn strategies that are much more adult much more effective to deal with difficult people and in a bizarre way, which is really true. You learn that most difficulties are not personal. They're really not about you know, someone's being really difficult. It's their stuff. They're having the conflict. They're also saying, give me what I want. You know, and the what you want and what they want, can go sideways, and Artbeat between is the conflict

Jackie Simmons: 00:04:58

so before we go to far down that particular rabbit hole, there's a place that we're going to go. And so I want to reassure everyone, this is not going to stay really on the concept side, there are some very concrete things that we can all do to make dealing with difficult people easier. And it does not require us to do a lot of introspection or a lot of anything. So just I want to reassure people that, you know, as much as I would love to just have a personal session with you right now, even though this is a podcast, a difficult person, what can we say?

Jackie Simmons: 00:05:42

The power of this? Alright, I want to give everybody just a little bit of a background for you, because you have a nickname. And so let's talk about that for a second. Yeah, I mean, my nickname, everybody knows I talk about the elephant in the room, I'm known as the elephant tamer, you got a slightly different nickname, but it's along the same line. So how did you get tagged as the lion tamer,

Leslie Austin: 00:06:07

I got tagged as a lion tamer, way back in the 90s. Because I was doing a lot of executive coaching, very senior management, very successful, really accomplished high achieving, mostly executives, mostly men, who also were very abusive in their relationships with other people, the people with a lot of very narcissistic traits, who think they believe in people is how you win. And at a certain point, and when you get way high up in corporate structure, you can't do that anymore, you have to be a lot smarter, otherwise, your career is going to be over. It's just, that's just a fact. So I would be assigned to coach these guys, and basically help them wake up and get a life. And the way I would do that, because they were obsessed with being the king and winning everything would be to let them know that I was their best friend. And that I wanted them to be much smarter that they were getting bad feedback, and they had the control to change that. How could they change it? It's not about the other person. It's about how you behave and what you do. So one of my clients who headed a very big division in his bank, said, it's like you're the lion tamer. And that stuck with me.

Jackie Simmons: 00:07:26

There we go. Alright, so the idea,

Leslie Austin: 00:07:28

one point for you, though, because you were reassuring people. There's one thing that's very important as we go into any of this discussion, because when we talk about difficult people, inevitably, trauma gets mentioned somewhere. And what I want to say is, it's at the root of all my work, that dealing with difficult people, dealing with trauma, dealing with anything that's really challenging, does not and should not, and ought not, in my opinion, be a horrible, painful experience. It shouldn't be agonizing. It shouldn't be endless, oh, I have to deal with this because I'm sick, or I'm defective, or I've got bad habits, or I'm a victim, or I'm abused. Although we have those feelings, and they're legitimate. Once you have those feelings, those are pointers, that what you really need is to find the joy in your life, the positive energy in your life, that's being blocked by these old habits of struggle of pain of trauma. So when you deal with difficult people, you want to come from the basis of I want things to be better, not the other person is bad. Alright,

Jackie Simmons: 00:08:42

so there we go. First clue on how to deal with a difficult person come into any conversation or interaction from the attitude of I want things to be better, rather than you're wrong.

Leslie Austin: 00:08:56

Right? What's really going on here? Why do we have a disagreement? Why do we have a different point of view, if you ask yourself, if you're able to, and this takes practice, this is a learning and once you get it, it's really powerful. So if you feel frustrated at first, don't worry that it takes practice, just like learning to drive a car to play tennis right away, step by step. When you start to become aware that there's a conflict, ask yourself, what is what's really going on here? What's the emotion that they're having? And what is it they really want? And when I asked that question, I'm not talking about the words that they're saying. I'm not talking about what they're describing. I'm talking about what do they need? And often what they're after, is only partly contained in the words of what they're telling you to do.

Jackie Simmons: 00:09:50

Oh, yeah, most people get it's funny. All right. When I get into goal setting when I get into visioning, and I do a lot of This in my work with my clients.

Jackie Simmons: 00:10:03

Very often, people have no clue what they want. They cannot articulate what they like. But yeah, and so you're right, the words that come out of their mouths are not necessarily the whole story and sometimes not even part of the same story as far as what they want.

Leslie Austin: 00:10:25

Why? Right. So I tend to view just the way my mind is wired, I tend to view interactions from the perspective of who's got the power, who's making the move. And I often actually almost think of it like, you know, in sports, if you have a basketball team, they have a playbook of moves or football. If we do the ball this way, then we move this way we throw it we have they have schemes schemata, for which moves to make to get to the goal. I tend to think of in an interaction, who's got the ball? What do they really want? Who's making the move? who's pushing? Who's going after something? And who's receiving it? And what does the person who's pushing really want? So like, for example, in a corporate setting, you might have a guy who wants somebody on his team to implement a certain procedure or a certain that is made, and his team member knows that it's wrong. And a team member says no, I'm not doing that. Well, if the team member were really smart, rather than just saying, No, I'm getting into a fight and having an interaction, the team member would would realize that in what does he really want, he wants that scheme to achieve something. He looked past the specifics of the words to what is he really looking for? And he'd say, you know, I get that you want this thing to happen, but I'm not sure that's the best way to do it. How about we look at it this way, we can get what you want done by doing it this way, how about it, but that's addressing what the guy really wants, not the tactic.

Jackie Simmons: 00:12:15

And if you're not clear what somebody really wants, because let's face it, we just said that it's not always clear to the person who wants it. And it's often not expressed out loud very clearly, even if they do know. But so what's the next question that we would ask if the first one is what did they really want? What do

Leslie Austin: 00:12:34

you really want? What what do you what do you need? How can I What can how can I give you what you want? What do you what are you looking for what will make you satisfied? What will make you happy? It's an endless list of questions. And they may or may not be able to answer it. But you are then deflecting that you are being told a specific thing that you are opposed to. Now, there are also softer ways to say no, when you're going to conflict with a difficult person, especially if they have what I would call more narcissistic traits. And I'll describe what that is in a minute. So you can spot it. Because it's a lot of going around these days. There are reasons

Jackie Simmons: 00:13:12

that word is being bandied about a lot these days. And incorrect. Good. Thank you. I'm glad you said that. So let's, we're gonna go there. Alright. Finish your thought. What else would make you satisfied as that kind of questioning?

Unknown: 00:13:28

What do you really need here? Let's just simple what do you really after? What end result do you need? What's the end result of what you need? So because I'm asking that, because I'm trying to think is there a way I can do what you want? That also feels okay to me.

Jackie Simmons: 00:13:42

Got it. And in that scenario, in the work environment, it makes absolute sense. And a personal environment. I just realized somebody facing this might bump up against this, that they go to ask one of these questions and realize the issue is that they really don't care what the other person wants, right? Oh, that's a big aha.

Unknown: 00:14:07

Well, you have choices if you don't really care what the other person wants. Do you want to be confrontational? Say, I don't care and walk away? In which case you're either constructing more conflict or jeopardizing the relationship? Or do you want to say, I'm not so concerned with this and I'm not comfortable with it? Is there something else we can do here? Can you get it done without me?

Jackie Simmons: 00:14:30

If you're sticking with that same scenario of they want something that you're not willing to notice?

Leslie Austin: 00:14:39

The language amusing is softer in a way it's more respectful, but it is not judgmental. It's not setting up a personal opposition. You're bad because you're you're wanting this what you want is wrong. That's a guarantee for counseling. Well good resolution for what you want as well.

Jackie Simmons: 00:15:03

So advice for the conflict avoidant, you can avoid conflict by learning a few different ways to talk to the people around rather than running and hiding or falling into what our society says are appropriate ways of dealing with things. The whole just say no campaign guaranteed to create conflict. Absolutely.

Unknown: 00:15:29

And if you are conflict avoidant, then you are avoiding dealing with the truth of what's going on and you're selling yourself out. You're that afraid of difficulty or conflict. You're not taking care of yourself, because you have this imagined idea that if you say no, you know, the heavens will fall on you and the Wrath of Khan will descend and you'll be destroyed by this angry person. Well, that's not helping you. Because if you really get more aware and more alert and study some of the strategies and the tactics that do work, you don't have to avoid the conflict, but you can dissolve it and still hold your own. I'm not big on conflict. You know, anybody's into astrology. I have Mars and Libra, I hate direct conflict. I spent my entire career helping people learn how to negotiate with each other, to get better results in resolutions without knocking heads. And sometimes because I've done a lot of executive coaching, people really like to knock heads. They get their jollies by destroying other people, we have a number of politicians and celebrities, you just look in the news. You see people who are very, very destructive. They have what I call malignant narcissist traits or other mental health issues. And they enjoy really vilifying and shaming and destroying other people without boundaries.

Jackie Simmons: 00:17:01

And I'm gonna just pause this, and I'm going to say that if somebody takes a look at the news, with an objective lens, it's all across the board. It is not any one politician. It is not any one celebrity. It is not any one political agenda. It's not any one soap social agenda. It's our okay, it's our culture.

Leslie Austin: 00:17:25

So I'm not gonna go off onto a whole read, which I can easily do. But how did we get here? I was just gonna say the root of that is technology. There you go. If you imagine in the late 1800s, if you were Sarah Bernhardt, the actress or Abraham Lincoln in the 1860s, and you were very famous, how were you famous, people sent letters that were carried by horse across the country. And five days later, somebody know that you made a good speech, if you were really famous people had to be in person to hear you and see you physically. Once we had the invention of radio, suddenly, voices were out over the country. And people became much more famous because they had a bigger impact because they could be heard non locally. Then we have television, we have movies first. And we have people you know up on these huge screens, Clark Gable, and Jean Harlow and Charlie Chaplin, all those people, and they become stars in the heavens. They're idealized and elevated because of the reach that the technology gives them. Then television is in everybody's homes, everywhere. And then after television, then you start to have papers and pages in the internet. And now everybody who has dessert in a restaurant and takes a photo and puts it up on Tik Tok is an influencer. And being a little bit older. My question is, why on earth do I want to know that a 20 year old had dessert that tastes like this? What how does that contribute to my life? Now I know a lot of young people really enjoy that. That's fine, but don't make it more significant than it is. Don't give it import when it doesn't have any. Our relationships are totally skewed, the value of one on one contact has been significantly interrupted and disconnected. And so we have more conflict with difficult people because people, especially people growing up in the last, let's say, from the 60s on who were hit with the technology in their teens and 20s in the 70s and 80s, especially in the 80s. And then in the 90s. Those generations of people don't relate the same way older generations did, who were not growing up with technology. And a child you see in a restaurant watching video games on an iPad has a different brain neurology, and a different relational system than young, older generations. And so or conflict or ability to negotiate with each other to connect on a real level is very different. And so in our culture, we have people who are completely non empathic, do not know how to connect with people.

Jackie Simmons: 00:20:15

Okay, so they are incapable of an emotional connection. I was

Leslie Austin: 00:20:23

not a capable, they haven't been it, they haven't been. That capacity hasn't been developed, they haven't been asked to learn that one. My clients come to me that way. And then when I work with them, of course, they learn and oh, big surprise, big shock, their lens gets so much better and so much happier. Take some work, but are absolutely not capable.

Jackie Simmons: 00:20:47

Okay, so the pause button, though, is I want to define empathy. And empathy is the ability to make an emotional connection.

Unknown: 00:20:54

Yes, empathy is the ability to connect with someone else, and to be able to understand what they are experiencing, even if you don't experience it. Alright, so like, you can

Jackie Simmons: 00:21:05

only connect and understand without enmeshment.

Unknown: 00:21:09

Right, exactly, I can connect to you and understand that and this one went you are, you might be really ticked off, huh. And I can empathize that you're angry without taking responsibility for it.

Jackie Simmons: 00:21:21

That is one of the most succinct statements ever on this topic. Because we've run the gamut, between the people who are unable to get they haven't developed the capacity to have an emotional connection, and to understand someone else's emotions. And on the far side of that is the person who takes responsibility for other people's emotions, what they shouldn't. And both Pete don't shoot on me. And people are, are you out of balance?

Leslie Austin: 00:21:59

Yes, totally. So as far as ends of the spectrum there, yes.

Jackie Simmons: 00:22:04

On the far end of the spectrum, okay, so the sweet spot in the middle, is where we want to go when we are dealing with a difficult person. And if we are unable to connect with them emotionally or, or understand their emotions, it's going to be more difficult to deal with them. Yeah. And on the other hand, if we are taking, we are not only aware of their emotions, but we are feeling responsible for their emotions, they're going to be more difficult to deal with, because we're gonna be trying to control what's not ours to control that I get a sweet

Unknown: 00:22:41

spot in the middle. That's exactly right, the sweet spot in the middle is always going to be a little bit messy, because we're human beings, and we're not machines, and we're not precise. So it's always going to be a mix of different feelings. So if you can't relate to the other person, because they're just too hardcore, and they're not being able to empathize with whom they just want what they want, you really need to take care of yourself and understand strategically how to keep your boundaries without necessarily antagonizing them. And if they do get antagonized, you have to know when to stop the relationship.

Jackie Simmons: 00:23:18

Okay, so you said a word, I was going to go to the B word, but I was a little hesitant to go to the B word, the B word is boundaries. And I call it the B word because there's so many trainings out there about how to set and keep, quote, healthy boundaries,

Leslie Austin: 00:23:37

and most of them will get you in trouble.

Jackie Simmons: 00:23:39

If you're dealing with a difficult person, yes, they are this. Okay, how about that? If you're dealing with a difficult person, those strategies are ineffective. That's right, we'll get you in trouble. What's trouble look like?

Leslie Austin: 00:23:52

Listen, 95% of the videos and the teachings and psychologists are many of whom are wonderful in what they say. All that stuff about narcissism and on YouTube, if you follow what they tell you to do, you will get clobbered by the narcissism by the narcissist guaranteed failure, guaranteed abuse guaranteed you will walk away feeling demoralized and upset, why they don't address the emotional reality that the person with those traits and I don't want to label people, person who has certain behavior patterns and traits, what their world is like. They don't take that into account. And why I say the word narcissist is being used incorrectly is the implication is that anybody who has those traits is evil, bad wrong, a bully. Nonsense. We all have those traits. You have to have those traits in healthy balance. To be a good leader. You have to have healthy narcissistic traits to want to have a podcast to help people. I have to have them to say to sit here and say, Hey, Jackie, I've got something good to say. Follow me And lp in my hands, let me teach you, I have to have healthy nurses. Now if I say, by the way, all those people out there, idiots, I'm the only one who really knows, you know, I'm out of balance. And you know, I'm not going to help. Now just want to say one more thing, oh, okay,

Jackie Simmons: 00:25:18

we're going to have to pause and hang on to that thought, because there are a lot of people making a lot of money saying that everyone else in my industry is an idiot. And I'm the only one who understands the need to buy from me,

Leslie Austin: 00:25:34

that's the first thing to not trust them about. Guaranteed 100%.

Jackie Simmons: 00:25:39

And yet, there are trainings that say that in your marketing message, you have to have a villain.

Leslie Austin: 00:25:44

Sure, that's about money. That's about triggering a pain point and your potential client or audience and making them feel so victimized and demoralized that only you can help them. That's a power play. Now, that's different than a marketing message, which says, Are you struggling with this, we can guide you to strengthen yourself?

Jackie Simmons: 00:26:07

Right, that's everybody else. That's not

Unknown: 00:26:11

right. It's but it's also addressing the pain point without, without making the person a victim.

Jackie Simmons: 00:26:19

And without making everyone else they've ever worked with wrong. Absolutely. So there's a sweet spot here. I'm a difficult person in the coaching industry. One because I'm not a coach. And two, because I actually certify coaches in a methodology. So I confuse people by definition, and I've got a bone to pick with an industry that's gotten really good at sales, and really bad at delivering what they're

Leslie Austin: 00:26:49

selling. Totally, I'm right there with you. That's one of the reasons I'm going to restrain from a rant but many of these so called coaching certification institutes, to me are nonsense. And I've never been certified them by them. What my credential is, is my experience and my track record supporting and helping people successfully. And I can give example, after example, after example of my work. And I can get testimonials from clients that say, she helped me do this, she helped me do that. This is what the change was, this happened. I just got a call last week from a guy I spoke to last eight years ago, out of the blue, who's now a senior executive at a big organization, a different organization. And he said, I remember you did this, this this, this is what changed. And I was listening to this thinking, wow, this is fabulous. I did that. No, he did that. Right. And I reminded him Yeah, I'm a great guy. But he did that. That's the

Jackie Simmons: 00:27:45

best definition of personal development, professional transformation, etc. What they call the coaching industry, is you did it, when you when our clients get what they want, they do the work, we get to guide and everyone guides, I don't care who they're certified by everyone guides in their own way.

Leslie Austin: 00:28:11

But Jackie, what you do, and what I do, is we listen deeply, to the person that we're working with, and we respond to guide them to evoke from them, what is best for them. I do not ever recall you telling somebody what to do. Here's the program. By the way, here's my sheet of rules for how you behave. And you I

Jackie Simmons: 00:28:40

tell my students in the certification program what to do, but they pay me to tell them what to do.

Unknown: 00:28:46

That's teaching a skill that's different. Now, when I work with people, specifically dealing with people who have those kinds of extreme narcissistic traits, and they have to deal with it, and sometimes I've dealt with women and in seriously abusive relationships where they were in danger, and I can't do that anymore, because I get too angry on their behalf takes too much out of me seriously. I've done it and I'm not the person anymore. What I do teach people are a set of guidelines, memorize this sentence, say it this way, here's the flag, but understand why I'm telling you to do that. You need to spot what's going on to know which strategy to use. And strategies are the ones that will help get through to that other person with all the defenses and the difficulties with the least conflict. You're not

Jackie Simmons: 00:29:44

the elephant in the room is if you want to get through to them with the least conflict. We're about to lay down some ideas for you. Yeah. And if that is not your intention, then perhaps this is The relationship that's already over. Yeah. So just I like to make it work and

Leslie Austin: 00:30:06

undergo change. If you wake up, it can't stay the same or you're going to just be miserable.

Jackie Simmons: 00:30:11

While other people are choosing to be miserable, it's their comfort zone or

Leslie Austin: 00:30:17

because they don't know, they're not aware, they don't have any awareness that they can behave differently. Now, this brings me to something I was going to say earlier, which I'll just say briefly, as our ability to relate to each other generation by generation has been diluted, and disconnected more and more by our environment. We have, I believe, more and more situations of abuse and childhood, whether it's emotional disconnection, physical abuse, you know, substance abuse, erratic behavior, all kinds of stuff, that people growing up in disruptive environments that don't support them to be emotionally whole and emotionally intelligent. So some of these strategies that I'm talking about, you have to realize that it's going to take a little bit of work to realize that you have these abilities innately in you, whether you grew up with them or not, you do. Yeah.

Jackie Simmons: 00:31:13

So we're going to talk about this. This is the difference between nature and nurture. And this is why you started out with the trauma conversation that we all we don't get out of childhood without trauma. No, it's like we don't get out of life alive. Okay, these are certainties in my world. So we also deal with the fact that it's true for everybody. And there is no trauma that's bigger or smaller than any other trauma. It is just, we all have trauma. Now that we accept that. What can we do to deal with other people? Because we do have to deal with people who deal with other people who trigger our trauma. That's why we call them difficult is not because of them. It's because they're triggering our shed, I pardon my language. No, actually, it's my show I can calcify. Absolutely, there we go, my my show my ballpark. The reality is that there are things that work for everybody across the board. And let's go ahead and give people some of those things that will work for them. And then we'll wrap this up for everyone. And I've got a couple of questions for you. So go ahead.

Leslie Austin: 00:32:30

So I'll give you the strategies. But I have to say that you have to understand the way I understand the word trauma, which is also seriously most misused these days and thrown all over the place. So trauma happens when on some level, a person of any age feels survival ly threatened, is not mentally, is not psychologically, it's mostly not even emotionally based. It's in the limbic system in the amygdala, all kinds of hormones, and neurotransmitters get pumped, what happens is, somehow the person is perceiving a threat. And the threat goes down to Will I survive. And there are a bunch of reactions to that that we go through. Now, what triggers the trauma is totally different. For other people, it's not always somebody standing in front of you with a knife, whether they're going to stab you or not. It's not always a lion chasing you down. It's not only somebody threatening your job, it's not only someone threatening to hurt you, it can be somebody saying something that to everybody else is the simplest little inoffensive comment, and it stings you to the core, for whatever reason. So you cannot define what is traumatic for anyone else, you need to go into their reality that this was traumatizing. This was upsetting this cause they a survival fear. And if it's still bothering them, they haven't cleared it through. So these strategies are ways to negotiate through that sense, because when you're dealing with a difficult person, in some way you are triggered that you're not going to be okay. The bottom line of it is you're not going to be okay. So, I'm going to say that let's for this example, say the person we're dealing with has what we call these narcissistic traits, which means that they see everything as an extension of themselves. Will they get what they want? Will they win? Or will they actually live in a winner die world I get what I want or I won't survive, which is why they're so controlling and dominating and can be bullying can also be very charismatic, very thrilling at the beginning, and then very stalking, when they like the chase, but once they've got you then you're the toy. It's like the cat playing with the mouse you know loves the chase. And then tortures it just because they have to control the chaos in their in a world. So you knowing that about them. One thing you cannot do is say no, that will absolutely trigger their wrath. So there are ways to say no, here's one, when you want to get somebody with those kinds of behavioral traits, to say yes to something, never asked them a yes or no question, because they will be hardwired to say no.

Jackie Simmons: 00:35:30

Okay, so never asking yes or no.

Leslie Austin: 00:35:34

This will never say no to them. Don't we'll get we'll get to that second. Never asked a yes or no question. Here's what you do always give them two choices, both of which are okay with you. Either one works for you.

Leslie Austin: 00:35:50

One of which you favor slightly more than the other. Emphasize the one that you do not favor to help they think this through your secret thought is a great wise one. helped me think this through.

Unknown: 00:36:06

I could do this this way. Or I could do this way. Now secretly you want a but you're going to emphasize when you say I'm slightly leaning towards B, what do you think they will be hardwired to choose a?

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:18

This is if you are talking to someone who is on the far end of this scale?

Leslie Austin: 00:36:25

Yes. Well, not even the far end. This would be almost anyone. It's okay. It's a basic. It's a basic

Jackie Simmons: 00:36:31

human trait. Yeah.

Unknown: 00:36:34

Okay. Yeah. The the intensity of how extreme they are, will change how you do it and how subtle you are. You know, it changes that. But basically, you don't ever want to just say a flat No, unless you're willing to take on the conflict or ground or explain why you're saying no, now verbal discussions often aren't helpful. Remember, what's really going on is an emotional battle. Emotional differences. Yeah, survival

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:02

league going on is it's there. If I'm, if I'm wrong, I will die.

Leslie Austin: 00:37:08

Yeah, well, if I'm wrong, I'm not going to be okay. Yeah.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:11

Okay, if I'm wrong, I'm not going to be okay. I'm not going to be okay. And you're what we're talking about, about them. Trauma being survival based. Those somewhere everybody's reaction in this situation will be somewhere between if I'm wrong, I'm not going to be okay. And if I'm wrong, I'm gonna die. Yes. Okay. So

Unknown: 00:37:32

those are just the extremes of intensity of the same issue. I'm okay, or I'm not. Okay, so that's not mental.

Jackie Simmons: 00:37:41

The two things not to do. All right. Yeah. So so do not say no, do not ask closed ended questions, yes or no questions. And the one thing to do is to, if you if you want them to buy in, I guess is the phrase if you want them to buy in to an action with you. present two different options, emphasize the that you're okay with either one, just because that's so that you're safe. Yeah, this makes you safe if you're okay with either option. And if there's one that you favor, emphasize the other one. Now,

Leslie Austin: 00:38:26

yes. Now, you're doing that as you're actually giving. Here's why this is how it works. Okay, the perception of power, which is what the other person wants by demanding what they want, you're giving them the need to feel in charge, by giving them the choice they get to choose. And you can pretty much predict it, they'll make some slight change in what you suggested, so that they can then take credit for it themselves, fine. Let them you basically got what you wanted.

Jackie Simmons: 00:38:55

And this is not even really about narcissism, this is just about basic human relationship. Yes. If you understand that this is how we all react if we're presented with the same situation from someone else, we're going to be exhibiting the same tendency to Yes,

Leslie Austin: 00:39:15

it's more it's more important than when someone tends towards those narcissistic traits, but it applies to all kinds of difficult people. Now, we do need to say that difficult people can also be what we call passive aggressive, where they're coming across as very nice, you know, oh, I don't want to hurt you. But, and that can make you crazy, because those are very mixed messages. And your job there again, is to notice what's really going on. They're saying it very sweetly, but really, they're not being so sweet. And you address what they're really saying or doing again, in a soft voice. But you don't you don't play into the game. Now, that doesn't mean you have to be confrontational or you know, abusive back. But you need to be truthful with yourself about the powerplay, what's going on? Really? What are they really doing? Oh, they're speaking to me nicely, and they're actually putting me down. That doesn't feel so good. Passive aggressive people are very much like that.

Jackie Simmons: 00:40:15

It's very much a key here. You've said what not to do what yours now saying is what to do. And what to do is give yourself enough breathing room in a relationship that you can observe. Yes, oh, and maybe even write down, no, come out of a conversation and write down what happened. See, if you notice patterns in your relationships,

Unknown: 00:40:42

the more you can teach yourself to have an observer, just have one foot out of the interactions, some awareness, the meta awareness of what's going on, the more likely you will be able to negotiate your relationships far more smoothly. And you will be able, you absolutely will have instances where it's just a nightmare, because we're human beings. You're not going to get good at this all the time. It's a little bit of work at the beginning. Now, the other thing about Don't ever say no. What you do, instead of saying no is now this, I have to explain this sounds manipulative and in the pure sense of the word it is, but it's not harming someone. It's shaping the interaction. So in your, you have a different mental thought than what you're saying. What you say is somebody says, Oh, this glass is green. You know, it's blue. I know it's blue. But there's another out this question has been, instead of saying, No, it isn't even have a fight. What you say is, I can kind of see how you might think that. Now in your mind, you're thinking because you're a pain in the petunias. You know, whatever. But you don't say that point out left. But you said we'll kind of see what you how you might take that you're not saying yes, you're right. And you're not saying no, it's not. But you're acknowledging their reality. But I wonder how do we deal with this? I look at this, and I'm absolutely sure it's blue. So what do we do? I caught the ball. I held it. I gently tossed it back. I didn't smack it back at the person. So what do we do? To me? That's good.

Jackie Simmons: 00:42:24

All right, using this, and I'm gonna unpack it for me. The skill set is catching the ball. Yeah, absolutely. And the ball is, someone says something that is in conflict with your reality, their reality, the glasses, green is in conflict with your reality that the glass is blue, the ball is whatever they need, and the ball is what do they need? Right? And the shortest path to get there is simply to say, well, I can see how you sort of see that my reality is that the glass is blue, what do we deal with this? Right? And then they have the opportunity to tell you what it is that they need. But and if you do it any other way, you shut down the opportunity for them to be able to actually share and you'll be in conflict. You You can disagree without being in conflict using this strategy.

Leslie Austin: 00:43:21

Totally you you must disagree without their conflict. Because the disagreement is your reality. That doesn't mean you have to win either.

Jackie Simmons: 00:43:31

Yeah, it's not about right or wrong. It is just about we see things differently. What do we do with this? Yes,

Unknown: 00:43:38

the conflict is when you equally and oppositely want to win the way they do. And there's no yielding or, or connecting or discussing. Now, I want to make one caveat here. If you are actually in physical threat, an actual survival threat, or a major conflict, like this person could fire you and you can't afford to lose the job. You've got to be careful about that. You can't be cavalier about, oh, well, this is my reality. You've got to use a lot more strategy. And you've got to be a lot more aware of the dynamics and go slowly.

Jackie Simmons: 00:44:11

All right, what's really good news is I know that you have a course on this and people are going to be able to find out about it on your website and in the show notes. And so if they want more information on how to deal with difficult people, you've got them covered there. Leslie, this was a lovely journey into this whole world around how do you deal with difficult people, and the reality that we are probably someone else's difficult person to deal with? Sure. So thank you for bringing all of your wisdom and everything that you have learned along the way. The power of other people being able to hear your story recognizing that you your depth of experience is what you bring to the world. And that has value and this sidesteps the whole conversation that I'm hearing out there, around impostor syndrome, and all of these things which are based on other people's opinions, as opposed to what do I know by my direct experience,

Leslie Austin: 00:45:24

nobody's a label the label to me,

Jackie Simmons: 00:45:29

I love it, nobody is a label. And that's why what we know about narcissism is just people throwing around labels, it has no validity in a conversation, trust your observation, instead,

Unknown: 00:45:44

here's the thing, you have to trust your observation, because it's not that it has no validity, a lot of what's talked about is valid. But they all go down the rabbit hole of trying to understand the psychology and the motivations and get, you'll get totally trapped inside that person's head. And that's the last place you want to be. You want to observe what they really want. It's a behavioral approach. And you want to be in integrity. And if at all possible in kindness. Remember that dealing with difficult people and trying to resolve it, even resolving your own trauma. The reason you want to do that is to make your life better, to be happier, to expand, to find more joy, not to just relieve suffering. That's a good goal. But it's only a tiny part of the story is the negative part. Okay, I won't suffer pain anymore. Now I want to thrive. So that's really the motivation for wanting to do this. You want to thrive and have more joy in your life. And there are better ways to get through difficult situations.

Jackie Simmons: 00:46:46

So the goal is not just to survive, not even just to dial things down. The goal is to have relationships with difficult people where everyone

Leslie Austin: 00:47:00

thrives. Well, it's not always possible, because they may not let you help them thrive. But you want to feel good about yourself, you want to feel good about yourself, your highest self shines.

Jackie Simmons: 00:47:13

There we go. And be kind to everyone, including yourself. This, I love it, we could probably go on and talk for hours. So what we're going to do is put a button on this one. There are some skills here for people to be aware of be aware of how often you just say no, and look for softer ways for addressing any situation with anyone. Be mindful of how many times you're asking a closed ended question, unintentionally. There are times where it's appropriate. But yeah, just be mindful. Because these are habits we've picked up growing up. And make sure that if you're clear on what you want, and you're working with someone who's difficult, that you have two options that both are acceptable.

Unknown: 00:48:04

And when you present them just

Jackie Simmons: 00:48:09

slightly emphasize the one that is the least attractive if there is if there is a differentiator between the two leads to trial,

Leslie Austin: 00:48:17

because you're satisfying the other person's need to feel in charge and powerful in a way that supports both of you and doesn't harm you and calms them down.

Jackie Simmons: 00:48:29

There we go. Perfect. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Leslie.